Episode transcription

(Be aware this transcription was done by AI and might contain some mistakes)

Fabrice Neuman (00:00)
Hi everyone and welcome to the Human Pulse Podcast where we talk about living well with technology. I'm Fabrice Neuman, a tech consultant for small businesses.

Anne Trager (00:08)
And I'm Anne Trager a human potential and executive performance coach.

Fabrice Neuman (00:14)
This is episode 24, recorded on October 4th, 2025.

Anne Trager (00:18)
Human Pulse is usually never longer than 30 minutes. So let's get And today, if you're watching this on YouTube, you will see another face. And I'm just going to say that as a teaser. We will get around to this new face in a second. The topic today is intellectual property. So I'm just going to throw out there what intellectual property is. It's, and then I maybe I'll be corrected later.

set of legal rights that protect creations of the mind. Things that we invent, art, design, symbols, names and brands. And this allows creators to have control over how these are used and the ability to benefit from them.

So when I say it like that, it's pretty much of a no brainer, right? AI is good for everyone.

Fabrice Neuman (01:07)
Well, enter AI and all of a sudden everybody can create a new painting by Banksy, write a new book by Dan Brown, or a new song by Taylor Swift. See what I did there? What are those new works of art? Real creations, vulgar copies, legal, illegal, and can or should IP protect against that?

Anne Trager (01:28)
So on Human Pulse, we talk a lot about using AI and what it means. So for these IP questions, we needed a professional. And boy, do we have a professional on

We are honored to have with us today, Raymond Hegarty, a world renowned IP coach. Raymond is a speaker, author, investor, and billion dollar IP strategist. We are very lucky to have him here today. He helps C-suite executives shape

and implement intellectual property strategies to mitigate risk and enhance intangible value. And maybe he'll explain to us what that means. So Raymond, thank you for being with us today.

Raymond Hegarty (02:09)
Welcome, thank you for having me.

Fabrice Neuman (02:10)
Yeah, Raymond, thank you for joining us. So IP is obviously ingrained in our life in general and in tech in particular. So that said, before we pick your brain, as you understood we would do today about what we said in the introduction of today's episode, we'd like to begin with your own relation to technology. What does it mean for you to live well with technology and actually do you?

Raymond Hegarty (02:35)
Yeah, I've always been fascinated by technical things and by inventions, you ever since I was a kid. And when I was a schoolboy, we used to, ⁓ they didn't have computers in our school. So we used to get a bus to the local university where there was one computer and we would get time on the computer there and learn to do rudimentary coding. So that was my introduction to the world of computing. And for me, when you talk about technology, I tend to associate it with computing.

But of course, technology is much broader than that.

Anne Trager (03:07)
Absolutely, yeah, technology began with the wheel, I would suppose.

Fabrice Neuman (03:13)
Yeah

Raymond Hegarty (03:14)
Yes.

And in your introduction, Fabrice, you were talking about, know, that anybody can make music by Taylor Swift. And, know, you've mentioned the date at the start of this podcast. Taylor Swift just released her new album yesterday. So she's very much in the news. And I have to say, only Taylor Swift bring out music by Taylor Swift. AI can bring out music that sounds like it's by Taylor Swift, but it's not music by Taylor Swift. So that's just the pedantic

Fabrice Neuman (03:29)
Indeed.

Anne Trager (03:37)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Raymond Hegarty (03:42)
correction that I would put there.

Anne Trager (03:44)
Well, and thank you.

Fabrice Neuman (03:44)
Well,

I actually did that on purpose because obviously that's the whole question, right? Whether it is by or in the likes of or, you know, what you mentioned. ⁓

Anne Trager (03:56)
Well,

and thank you for saying that as well, because one of the things that we occasionally discuss on this podcast is the blurring of the lines. And it might be important for you to say that, and it might be important for Taylor Swift that we say that, and it might be important for fans of Taylor Swift, but a whole bunch of other people don't really care, you know, and they don't know how to distinguish

the difference and I would suspect that most even the fans might not even be able to tell the difference with some of the power of AI out there which brings into question this whole notion of property maybe.

Raymond Hegarty (04:33)
Yes.

that's, know, when you also were describing intellectual property, I like to broaden it even broader to intellectual capital. And that puts it in a business sense rather than a legal sense. Because my whole world is the world of business. Now, of course, there's a legal magnifying glass on that, but I'm coming from business first. And we're looking at companies that have increased their value.

Anne Trager (04:42)
Hmm.

Raymond Hegarty (04:59)
due to the smart people that are in the company. An intellectual capital, capital comes from the Latin for head. Intellectual capital is what's developed in the heads of the people in your company. And what you're trying to do as a business is make sure that the ideas that are in the heads of the people in your company become available to the whole company and that more people can share them and then they can bring them to the world and everybody can benefit from it. So that's my link.

Fabrice Neuman (05:06)
Heh.

Raymond Hegarty (05:25)
across then to the world of creatives. Because when we talk about creativity and, you know, let's let's keep hammering on Taylor Swift here that, you know, AI can generate something that sounds like her, but it doesn't quite have the soul yet. And people find it very hard to describe what that soul is. On the other hand, most creative people know that creativity, it takes years of developing your craft and working on something.

Fabrice Neuman (05:34)
Hmm.

Anne Trager (05:40)
Hmm.

Raymond Hegarty (05:53)
And then when you come out and you're crafting a song, for example, it could take months of writing a song and recording it and producing it and editing it. And with AI, you can do this in seconds now. So it is a very convenient way to have something that does sound creative without necessarily having to put in all that hard work. And for a lot of people, there's a lot of attraction to that.

Anne Trager (06:15)
And sometimes that's good enough. As painful as it is for me to say that.

Raymond Hegarty (06:17)
Yes.

Fabrice Neuman (06:20)
Yeah, well, I suppose it is, I think to everybody, but I'd like to go back to the word benefit. You used Raymond, like you said something for the creation to benefit everyone. There's many ways for a work of art to benefit someone. And I would say the first one of those benefits is the emotion that it creates.

we benefit from art because the emotion it creates in us. And then, I think we agree that an artist today, in order to make a living out of his art, needs to benefit financially, that's the word I was looking for, from his art creation, their art creation. But then,

Is it not benefiting as well from art to be able to maybe quote unquote create whichever work of art we want thanks to obviously the work from artists before and that AI was able to build upon? Is it not another way of benefiting from creation?

Raymond Hegarty (07:16)
Absolutely. Like if you look at a musician like Bob Dylan, that he went from being an acoustic guitarist to an electric guitarist and his previous fans really, really hammered him for this because they said that he was selling out rather than that he was exploring another form of creativity. And that's something that AI can do is that it can bring new tools to the hands of people who are already creative or it can bring it like, as you know, a lot of

Anne Trager (07:42)
Hmm.

Raymond Hegarty (07:44)
creative people work on their own, in their workshop, doing their own lonely art. But there are also people who do creative collaborations. And from that collaboration, brings out a lot more than a single person could do. These days, AI can become your collaborator. So it is bringing the possibilities of collaboration to a lot of people who might not have had that possibility before.

Anne Trager (08:02)
Hmm.

Fabrice Neuman (08:08)
So then what makes a song like Taylor Swift, not a song by Tay Tay? And how do you make a difference? And is there any way we can actually avoid these songs to appear? Can even Tay Tay fight against that?

Anne Trager (08:08)
Well.

Raymond Hegarty (08:25)
Well, first of all, the march of technology and progress is inevitable. And anybody who thinks that they can stop it using traditional tools and to stay back in the old ways is probably fighting a losing battle. And again, this isn't the Tay Tay show, but she has shown that apart from being a musician, she understands the music business very well. She understands copyright very well. She's had fights previously and she has been very successful, including

Fabrice Neuman (08:40)
Hehe

Anne Trager (08:41)
here.

Raymond Hegarty (08:52)
when she had the rights ⁓ of her music were sold to somebody else and then she re-recorded them herself with massive success. And that was seen as being another victory against the man. those are some examples. When you ask, know, what makes something creative? I remember about a year and half ago, there was an AI created Oasis type album.

Fabrice Neuman (09:06)
Hehehehehe

Anne Trager (09:06)
Mmm.

Raymond Hegarty (09:19)
And I remember talking with a music journalist friend of mine and we were saying that, wow, this is uncannily like a lost Oasis track, know, something that was left in the vault and it was only just discovered. And then when we listened a little bit more, we said to ourselves that I could understand as well though why it would have been left in the vault because it didn't have that nice Oasis danger or the edge or the lived experience that just replicating the sounds that somebody makes.

Anne Trager (09:27)
Mm-mm.

Fabrice Neuman (09:37)
Hahaha

Anne Trager (09:38)
Hahaha!

Raymond Hegarty (09:47)
without understanding the heartache that goes into it or without understanding the thought process or even for example, you know, the muscle tiredness when you're playing something on your guitar that that changes how you express something, you know, how it goes from the start of a song to the end of the song. These are things that AI can replicate, but it doesn't know why it got there.

Anne Trager (09:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So there are a couple of really interesting points here. First of all, there's this notion of creativity always building upon the shoulders of those who have come before. Creativity is creative replication of what we've done before with changes. So from that point of view,

the whole notion of intellectual property and I don't know enough about it to say anything but actually is kind of questionable because you know people there have been studies done on the number of possible plots in a novel and there were like 27 of them okay I mean if you break it down which means that we're all just copying each other one after the other which is one of the fundamental things and however

Each work is different because it has this different taste or this different flavor or this different heart, this that unspeakable kind of thing that happens when you have poured your heart and soul into creating something. And like you said, or because you got tired and your fingers couldn't quite touch the chords in exactly the same way. So it's so interesting because it's all, it's all just copies and they are all extraordinarily different.

Raymond Hegarty (11:17)
Yes.

Anne Trager (11:23)
a little bit like us human beings, if I do the full circle, is that we all have the same basic elements of DNA and so on and so forth, and we are all so extraordinarily different.

Raymond Hegarty (11:35)
Yes, I turned around there because there's a keyboard behind me and I was going to move my camera, but let's not change the camera setup. But on the keyboard, as you know, you have octaves and on an electronic keyboard, typically it's five octaves. So that's 60 white keys. And then you've got five black keys for every eight white keys. So that's how it's set up. There's a very small variation in what's on the keyboard.

Anne Trager (11:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Fabrice Neuman (11:39)
Hahaha ⁓

Raymond Hegarty (12:00)
But how many different songs have we heard? It's not like they've played all the variations of the songs and we're now finished. That you will continue to get new and interesting music coming from something which is even as invariable as a keyboard compared to the variety that we have in human DNA. But coming back to your question about standing on the shoulders of giants and why you think intellectual property could be a barrier for that. I would even say that the opposite could also be said. That you look at something like the patent system.

Anne Trager (12:16)
Exactly.

Raymond Hegarty (12:29)
The patent system is designed to give inventors some protection for their invention. And that's what everybody thinks about. Like when you mentioned intellectual property at the start, you've mentioned the word protection a few times. But also it's given as a trade-off that you're given protection for a limited period of time on the condition that you also publish what is the thing that you're claiming. So any time that you file a patent application, you have to write it up in enough detail.

Anne Trager (12:39)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Raymond Hegarty (12:58)
that somebody of the same kind of skill as yourself could simply read the patent and understand what this new technology is about. And then within 18 months of your patent application being filed, very often that's even before the patent is granted and before you got the protection, it's now published for the world to see. And you don't have to pay to go into some library to see this patent. You can check it online from the comfort of your home. You don't even need to log in and give your credentials so they don't even know who's checking.

So with full anonymity, you can check in all of the patent offices around the world with automatic electronic translation of what their patents are. So this is what we talk about standing on the shoulders of giants, that for somebody to get this protection, they have to show the world how they do it. And they will only be protected for the life of the patent, which is the maximum of 20 years. And very often it's less if they don't pay the maintenance on this or if it ends up being invalidated. But the world still gets to see that patent.

even after it has expired. So these are advances in technology that you can go back through the library of everything that's been developed over the last few hundred years because they're all available for free from the patent offices. So that's an example in the technology patent side of things.

Anne Trager (14:09)
Hmm. Which is a little bit different than the copyright side of things, which is 50 to 70 years or something like that, which if you get like Disney.

Fabrice Neuman (14:14)
Or even more if you get very creative like Disney.

Raymond Hegarty (14:20)
Yes, and in the world of IP, if you're very fond of patents, you could be very jealous of the copyright world that they seem to have been...

Fabrice Neuman (14:27)
Yeah

Anne Trager (14:27)
Yes, I imagine. imagine

so. I imagine so. Well, I still wonder if in our AI driven world with all of this going faster, with the scale being larger with now you can actually send out your little, your bot to all of the patent offices and pick up the latest things and get your summary on the desk in the morning, which is kind of cool. Okay. So where is IP going? I mean,

How is this going to change things? Is the whole notion of property changing?

Fabrice Neuman (14:54)
Yeah, on the brink of disappearing, actually.

Anne Trager (14:56)
Hmm.

Raymond Hegarty (14:57)
Yes, you're right that the world of intellectual property, formal legal protections evolves very slowly. Like if we look in Europe, we have the single European patent, which everybody agreed was a good thing. And it's still taken 40 years from the time that people came up with this idea to the time that it's been implemented and hasn't even been implemented in all of the European countries yet.

So this is something which everybody agreed was a good idea, it would save costs for people, it would be very efficient, and then you'd have also a unified patent court so that you could have easy decisions and more transparency. And something like that, which is so obvious and still took 40 years. And we're looking at AI. Now, AI has been around for decades, but chat GPT has only been around for three or four years. just those changes that are happening due to chat GPT that, you

I was actually I was visiting a hospital recently and there was a an old lady who was brought in by her nephew and she was chatting away to him and she was telling him about you know which is better of the different AI tools and and when she went in for her procedure and I was chatting to her nephew who had brought her in there she's 103 years old and she was talking about why she prefers Claude

Anne Trager (16:10)
Excellent.

Fabrice Neuman (16:16)
Hmph.

Raymond Hegarty (16:19)
to chat GPT for certain things.

Anne Trager (16:22)
Hmm.

Raymond Hegarty (16:23)
So this is getting acceptance very quickly across the generations. And there's no way that IP can keep up with that. So trying to rely on the old IP tools to hold back the tide, coming back to your earlier question, of changes that are happening is something which, that's probably the wrong way to go. You need to realize that this juggernaut is moving forward and now we need to see how we're going to live in that new situation.

Anne Trager (16:27)
Exactly. Yeah.

Hmm. there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Fabrice Neuman (16:51)
Yeah.

We're moving at a pace, an extraordinary pace. mean, if we talk about something else that made the news lately, it's this OpenAI Sora creation program. And it even asks the same question, even with more emphasis.

So this is the new video creation tool by OpenAI and even Sam Altman, the OpenAI CEO, put himself or his image in those, opening the floodgates to create videos with real people in them. Within the tool, you can actually ask your friend, can I use your

the face you, you your face that you digitized through the tool and what have you. So it seems that if you try to use the face of a celebrity, you cannot use the tool. But we all know that this kind of barriers are very easily broken. So You know, and we saw also that the Nano Banana.

tool from Google being able to actually swap faces in videos and stuff like that. And in order to go back to, you living well with technology? Are you afraid by those tools? Because for the first time since, let's say, the Chad GPT era starting three years ago, I hear people saying, this is scary. A lot of people are saying this is scary. Are you scared?

Anne Trager (18:11)
Hmph.

Raymond Hegarty (18:14)
That's interesting. People very quickly run to try and attach a human personality to AI. ⁓ one person I'd blame, I'm not sure if you remember the movie Piranha. There was a horror movie Piranha. ⁓ It was, as you can guess from the title, was probably pretty dreadful. And then there's Piranha 2, which was even worse.

Anne Trager (18:21)
Mm.

No.

Fabrice Neuman (18:28)
I've never

I know about it.

Anne Trager (18:33)
Right.

Raymond Hegarty (18:36)
And the special effects

supervisor during this that the director ended up being fired and the special effects supervisor became the director and they were filming in Italy and he got food poisoning and at three o'clock in the morning he had a food poisoning nightmare and he wrote down that nightmare. And this was James Cameron who wrote the script to Terminator in his Piranha food poisoning nightmare. And this has become a very, very sticky caricature. This Skynet image.

Anne Trager (18:57)
Haha.

Raymond Hegarty (19:04)
is something which has lived with us since then. it was an act of creative genius for him to come up with this, but it has become something that the two things that people talk about all the time is one is, will it get out of control? And, you know, a bit like the Skynet story or the other thing is, will it take our jobs? And those are the two things that people are worried about the most about it. And then the other thing is that because it's so effective at doing things that sound human or sound

Anne Trager (19:23)
Mm-mm.

Raymond Hegarty (19:31)
that are they appear like something that we didn't think was possible a year ago, that people start saying that, there's something a little bit creepy about that or eerie about that. So those are the types of reaction that people have. I don't tend to have those reactions myself, partly because, you know, I've been working in AI a lot longer than this. Like I've been working in AI for more than two decades, which is long before chat GPT came out. So I've been watching it and being interested in how it's progressed. And also I've

Anne Trager (19:54)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Hegarty (19:59)
seen the economic consequences of other changes that have hit our society as well. between those things, you know, it's not something that I'm afraid of. I'm very excited about the possibilities and I can still see why people would have their concerns.

Anne Trager (20:12)
Well, I think one thing that comes up with some of these tools like Sora2 and NanoBanana are that it's really hard to tell the difference. When I get those emails from somebody and I can still tell that they've been written by generative AI and even if they run it through another thing that says make it not sound like generative, like AI.

You can still tell it's like the music you were talking about it earlier. There is something that we are still able to add that is

not yet added by AI in writing at least. And what's coming out from some of these tools is that it's really hard to tell the difference. Like is this real or is it not real? And that's, we make those, you know, we make those assumptions. We, human beings, we're going to look at the world around us and we're going to make assumptions on very little information. We filter things And so then it comes, makes it easier for these tools.

and it comes out and it looks like it's real and so that becomes the truth. Well, what truth?

Raymond Hegarty (21:18)
Yes, and in some situations,

you know, if you're talking about creativity and if you want to make a movie, this is a very cost effective way of instead of this thing costing hundreds of millions of dollars, you could have an idea and for $10,000 you could get something which looks almost as good as the hundred million dollar thing. Now, some of the lighting specialists who work on these hundred million dollar movies will say, oh, no, no, that the shadow on that wheel was wrong. But for most of us, we're not looking at the shadow on the wheel. So.

Anne Trager (21:22)
Hmm? Absolutely.

Fabrice Neuman (21:41)
Hehehe.

Anne Trager (21:42)
Yeah, yeah.

Raymond Hegarty (21:43)
You're correct that this is something first of all, which is the capability of doing this much more efficiently. The downside of this is that it can also be used for manipulation of society. It can be used for fraud purposes. It can be used for other kind of, you know, terrorist indoctrination, that type of thing. So there are some sinister aspects to this. Something which I've said before is that, you know, every 1st of April,

Anne Trager (21:50)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Hegarty (22:09)
When I open the newspaper, the first thing I'm doing is I'm watching for, where's that one article which is an April Fool's? And every email I get, I'm kind of a little bit suspicious. But what's happening every day now is every single email I'm getting, I'm a little bit in April Fool mode just to see, is this something real? Because there are things. Yes, April Fool's Day every day. And it's something which can lead to the, you know, for example, fraud about, you know, manipulation of people. You know, you don't even need to be very gullible.

Anne Trager (22:21)
here.

Fabrice Neuman (22:25)
It's April Fool's Day every day.

Anne Trager (22:28)
Also with...

Yeah.

Raymond Hegarty (22:37)
to be manipulated because these are getting very good at finding where are the triggers.

Anne Trager (22:41)
So I am very gullible

and so on April Fool's I have people, Fabrice being one of them, to help me to make sure that I don't believe in that. So the thing is that means that since every day is April Fool's now,

Fabrice Neuman (22:52)
Like every April Fool's morning, I tell her, remember which day it is.

Raymond Hegarty (22:58)
Mm-hmm.

Anne Trager (23:02)
It's an additional cognitive load that I have to carry because I have to be really careful. mean, I used to be able to say, well, if it's a marketing thing, I never respond to marketing directly. I always have to ask somebody because I just believe what people tell me. Okay. So, so I've always been very careful, but it's harder now to put up those rules.

Fabrice Neuman (23:21)
But knowing

that Raymond, so I feel that I have to ask you the question again. Aren't you scared by that?

Raymond Hegarty (23:27)
I'm not any more scared of that than all the other things that I'm scared of. know, there's so many things going on in the world that, you know, that maybe you would be scared of them. So it's something that I see that there are possibilities for harm, but there are also possibilities for good, just like in everything that's going out there. And this is a tool which gives a lot more power to people who want to achieve something. It lets...

Anne Trager (23:31)
Nice, nice.

Fabrice Neuman (23:31)
I

Anne Trager (23:43)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Raymond Hegarty (23:53)
you do things in a very efficient, very often low cost way. Separately from the environmental costs we talk about. But from the point of view of the cognitive load that you mentioned, that this is something which makes it easier. And humans always are trying to conserve cognitive calories. So this is a way of reducing that cognitive load. So there's positive things there.

Anne Trager (24:04)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Completely. Yeah.

Completely. And thank you, Raymond, for bringing it around to the positive because I think that, you know, as you said, there is good and bad. There is always good and bad. You know, the defenders out there are finding really cool ways with AI to protect from the attackers out there who are also finding really cool ways to attack with AI. And this has been going on since the dawn of ⁓

And it's just like, who's going to... It must be a really fascinating game to be in cybersecurity right now, for example, because wow, must be some crazy things going on there. I have too much stress to be in that kind of work, but it must be very interesting. And I think that a lot of what it comes down to is what we focus on. Do we focus on the bad or do we focus on the good? Because we are animals.

Fabrice Neuman (24:49)
Mm-hmm.

Anne Trager (25:06)
who love to share stories and if we share the stories of the good then we see the stories of the good and if we share the stories of the bad which is what the news says then we see only the bad. So thank you for bringing us around to the good. So what is your best memory or story about using tech ever since we're talking about living well with technology?

Raymond Hegarty (25:18)
You're very welcome.

Fabrice Neuman (25:20)
I'm

Raymond Hegarty (25:33)
I remember when I was just coming into my teens and seeing an ad in a newspaper for a digital watch and remember wanting to save up money to buy this digital watch and I think it was called a Lambda Quartz and it was a digital watch that had two time zones. Now I was only living in one time zone but you could have two time zones, there was a stopwatch, there was an alarm and this was the thing I wanted more than anything else and I saved up my money and by the time I'd saved up the money

Fabrice Neuman (25:51)
You

Anne Trager (25:51)
Hmm

Raymond Hegarty (26:00)
that was going off the market and I had to get a different watch, but it also had two time zones. So that's my first memory of being enthralled with some kind of digital technology.

Fabrice Neuman (26:02)
No. ⁓

How long did you keep that watch?

Raymond Hegarty (26:13)
until the little plastic face fell off it. So I ended up finding another piece of hard plastic and shaping it with sandpaper to fit into the bezel and glued it back in again. So it no longer had the branding and still had the watch. So I kept it for a lot longer even than most people normally would.

Fabrice Neuman (26:16)
Hahaha

Anne Trager (26:16)
Hahaha

Fabrice Neuman (26:31)
Very nice.

Anne Trager (26:32)
Hahaha.

Nice, nice. that kind of joy we also get from technology, know, which, yeah, absolutely. We have come up on the on our time. Yeah, so that's it for episode 24. Raymond, thank you so much again for joining us and being so generous with your time. Tell us where people can find you and interact with you.

Raymond Hegarty (26:40)
Yes.

Fabrice Neuman (26:47)
I believe so.

Raymond Hegarty (26:47)
Wow.

Probably the best way to get me is on LinkedIn. So if you look up Raymond Hegarty on LinkedIn and if you can see me on the video here, you just look for the guy with the crazy hair on LinkedIn. So Raymond Hegarty and if you look up Raymond Hegarty IP coach, you'll probably find me in lots of different ways.

Fabrice Neuman (27:15)
Well, thank you Raymond. I would add to that that maybe people can find your website and there's a video on there where you Make a list of all the Irish inventors. ⁓ I watched this video and it's very nice and I I never knew there were so many so thank you for that

Anne Trager (27:26)
Hehehe.

Raymond Hegarty (27:35)
Thank you for mentioning that. That's a TED talk that I gave many years ago and I wanted to take the optimism of previous Irish inventors that we are standing on the shoulders of who made inventions, some inventions more than 400 years old and are still in use today. So we're not talking about a 20 year patent expiry. So I was very happy to share that story as optimism for inventions that we can make in the future as well.

Anne Trager (27:45)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Fabrice Neuman (27:58)
Well, so yeah, go watch it. It's a treat. And it was a real treat as well to have you with us. Thank you, Raymond. You can visit humanpulsepodcast.com for links in past episodes.

Anne Trager (28:09)
Thank you for subscribing and reviewing. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, it helps other people to find us. Please share this with one person around you who may or may not have an interest in intellectual property and may or may not have some IP to protect. See you in a couple of weeks.

Fabrice Neuman (28:25)
Bye everyone.

Raymond Hegarty (28:27)
Thank you very much.